Envo gratis en artculos seleccionados. You have already got some good advice. The touchscreen was working fine and one day it just stopped lighting up all functions still work but the screen is black do you know where to start looking for the problem? The Reattas real problem was probably its size. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for SKF Alternator Bearing for 1988-1990 Buick Reatta 3.8L V6 - Generator kh at the best online prices at eBay! Can you measure the battery voltage? "The ones that run best are the ones with over 100,000 miles on them," he claimed. http://forums.aaca.org/f116/reatta-resources-287447.html. Gomberg believes the Buick V-6 and GM four-speed automatic are nearly bulletproof; he's seen Reattas at the Buick Club of America's annual "Reatta Reunion" with nearly 300,000 miles on the original engine and transmission. we were wanting to get the important (mechanical) side done first before moving on to electrical. This startled me, and My Reattas: 1988 Posted August 1, 2021 If no codes it could be anything weak in secondary ignition ( ICM, coils, plug wires, plugs. The dashboard aside, the interior picture brightens considerably. ok the head lights and blinkers work and so do the wipers but the defrost and the speedometer and crt dont illuminate. I'm betting on the BCM. Most of the lights and accessories are controlled by it. What plugs get pulled to check valve covers? The Reatta's drivetrain is as smooth and relaxed as any big Buick's. For all of the hoopla and marketing hype when it debuted in 1987 as a 1988 model it fell with a thud. To. Before you get too far, maybe you should get some info on that ok i found them thank you guys your are all being very good help in my time of need. "We were looking for younger buyers on their way up, that had the wherewithal to buy a $25,000 to $30,000 car," said Qualman. Brandon Lim Photographer Brett Berk Writer Dec 30, 2019. Qualman has the imposing stature of a retired NFL linebacker and the earnest face of an all-American kid grown up. I assumed when y'all say it will show codes on the CRT that it just shows diagnostics or warning info when something is wrong. Fluids weren't contaminated, so I was beginning to worry about the bottom end. That's the why of the Reatta. It wasnt a bad design but just imagine it with a lower top and wheels pulled out further at each end. Tenemos la seleccin ms grande y las mejores ofertas en Cinturones de accesorios para . It just makes alignment of the parts more difficult and supports nothing. Its not well known, probably because Buick only made it for not quite three years, from January of 1988 through the spring of 1991 making it one of the shortest-lived and so least remembered cars GM ever made. It was yet another case of GM going off on a tangent because some bonehead made the case for an expensive two-seat coupe for a GM division that had no plan, no image, and no sales. Please make yourself at home. .css-dhtls0{display:block;font-family:GlikoS,Georgia,Times,Serif;font-weight:400;margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;-webkit-text-decoration:none;text-decoration:none;}@media (any-hover: hover){.css-dhtls0:hover{color:link-hover;}}@media(max-width: 48rem){.css-dhtls0{font-size:1.125rem;line-height:1.2;}}@media(min-width: 48rem){.css-dhtls0{font-size:1.25rem;line-height:1.2;}}@media(min-width: 61.25rem){.css-dhtls0{font-size:1.375rem;line-height:1.2;}}Watch Out Casey Jones: We Drive a Locomotive, Our Porsche 718 Cayman Schools Us in Repair Costs, 1974 Datsun 260Z Tested: Improving on a Winner, Our 2023 Subaru BRZ Survived Its First Winter, 2024 BMW i5 M60 Looks to Be Another Promising EV, Our Tundra Embarks on 40K Miles of Truck Stuff, 2023 Lexus RZ450e Tested: Good Lexus, Just-Okay EV, Winnebago's eRV2: Cozy Cabin, Constrained Range, 1975 AMC Pacer Tested: A Fresh-Faced Novelty. Buick had hoped the Reatta would sell about 20,000 copies annually when the project was green-lighted in the summer of 1986 and the first pilot car assembled. Have you cleaned and tightened the grounds in the junction box near the battery as suggested by Mc_Reatta in a previous post? eBay Buick Reatta. Seth Rose. Buick which was looking for a way to shave its buyer demographic by about 30 years, from people in their 70s to people in their 40s wanted some of that action. Rich Ceppos has evaluated automobiles and automotive technology during a career that has encompassed 10 years at General Motors, two stints at Car and Driver totaling 19 years, and thousands of miles logged in racing cars. or maybe a failing crank sensor (though from what i know those will cause a crank no start but i could be wrong) any help would be appreciated. Thanks to an all-new floorpan stamping, the Reatta's wheelbase is 9.5 inches shorter than the Riviera's, and its overall size, not surprisingly, is similar to the Mercedes-Benz 560SL's. Sales peaked in 1989 when slightly more than 7,000 Reattas moved off dealer lots (the Mercedes SL sold about 9,000 units that year.) All of Gomberg's Reattas are runners, and none of them was purchased for more than $5,000. Each Buick Reatta also came with a special leather-bound owner's manual. The Reatta didnt have back seats, but it did have backseat storage cubbies, integrated with the trunk expanding usable cargo-carrying capacity significantly for a car its size. Thanks to plenty of steadying understeer, even drivers of modest talent will find the Reatta difficult to upset in hard corners. I'm wondering if the piston rings are starting to go. Do you have a spare of either on hand to swap out? no i dont have one of thoes laying around im 19 and use the car as the commuter it sounds like there is a clicking sound comeing from the relays down by the fuse block. The touch screen on my 1988 Buick Reatta is not lighting up. McIntosh says that at the time his design was not intended for any particular GM division; indeed, some of the earliest sketches for the new car wore Cadillac badges. It seemed to clear things up within a day of using it. Had it towed home at that point. The ECC was very buggy which should have been expected given the state of touchscreen tech back in 88, when kids were playing dot-dash football on the school bus. What do the minds here on the forum think of this? "So they took that product concept away and gave it to Cadillac." (The front fenders are injection-molded thermoplastic.) When starting the 1988 buick reatta , sometimes the digital dash will not come on at first and if and when it does come on it pops off and then after an hour or two all of a sudden it pops on and may or may stay on. We said to ourselves, 'Hey, if we're really going to be market-driven, we have to look at what they tell us.' Then check the grounding point behind the battery that those terminals are clean and secure also. The rigidity of its body is noteworthy. now this could cause a slow cranking when trying to start the car again and it may not even start. Reatta Owners Journal isa group of Buick Reatta owners and enthusiasts who enjoy discussing the Buick Reatta automobile and sharing information about it. Hopefully the codes stay history, but you may want to do the oxygen sensor as well as cleaning the idle air control as well as the idle air control housing. The 1988-91 Buick Reatta Is an Underappreciated Classic The halo effect didn't quite materialize for Buick's two-seat luxury cruiser. No puddle underneath and no dripping down the side of the engine that I could see. The instrumentation featured digital cathode-ray tube (CRT) gauges, and the center console housed a shockingly complex CRT touchscreen that controlled HVAC, entertainment, diagnostic, and supplemental gauge functions. As we rolled up the miles in comfort, however, it occurred to us that somethingsomething importantwas missing. Here, instead of progressing rapidly along an assembly line, the car moved from station to station on computer-guided platforms, allowing workers additional time and care in adding components. But Buick tried. You will hear the clicking sound when the terminals are not quite tight and yours are most likely corroded and loose. 1) read and record codes (C)urrent are more important than (H)istory. How about a digital cathode-ray tube gauge panel? Hello I have a 1988 Buick Reatta that won't start. The starter interrupt relay is what prevents the starter from operating. Copyright 2023, Antique Automobile Club of America. He furrows his brow and tell us of his days in Buick product planninghe headed the department before moving to the advertising side last Julyand of his ten-year battle to produce a two-seater. The screws are stainless steel and if you drop them they are gone [however they are the same screw as what holds the MAF sensor in place]. I heard tiny 1990 Buick Reatta runs great for 10 or 15 miles..then dies,, suddenly..no lights no overheating,. Ahead of its time and too far off-brand. From what I can find, the BCM from the Park Avenue or other full size Buick will not work in the Reatta or any other E platform car even from the same year. a group of Buick Reatta owners and enthusiasts who enjoy discussing the Buick Reatta automobile and sharing information about it. acceleration to re-enter highway, my car lurched forward. The problem was 1) the technology wasnt quite up to the task and 2) the typical Buick buyer got scared away from blinking digital information blasting from the instrument panel. The goo is a good sign it is bad. couldn't tell you as i didn't know what to look for yet for it. I don't really have the cash or time at the moment to break down the engine, as it's currently my daily, so I opted to go for a crankcase stop leak and it worked, spectacularly even. I'd switch to a Delco ignition, quality 8mm plug wires, and Delco Rapidfire (platinum) or Iridium plugs. lots of things appear to be very old or original. Simple 3800 Cam Magnet Replacement Replacing Magnavox Ignition With Delco Cleaning the IAC (3800) Padgett's Electronic Parts Reference More Info . He was in music school when he realized what he really wanted to do in life and, somehow, it's worked out. only things i can think of are: ignition coil pack, ignition control module, map sensor, dirty or bad MAF, cam position sensor (if these had those?) In order to make the car even more halo-worthy, the Reatta was built in a specially repurposed production facility in Lansing, Michigan, known as the Reatta Craft Center. But being only 30 at the time, and with a Corvette just $5,000 more, I felt like I would almost be embarrassed to be seen in a V-6," Gomberg said. Aston Martin Tickford helped out by building prototypes. "I've since put another 25,000 miles on that one," Gomberg said. A week later the oil pressure gauge started fluctuating from 0 to 19 psi if I recall rightly and then came to a complete stop. And the Porsche 911 from which the Reatta team cribbed some design cues, including the wide-panel single tail light and some pleats to straighten the curves a bit. It would be small, low, and sleek, with just two seats like the Fiero but without the commuter car taint or the engine behind its seats. A number of full-size clay models followed, and by January 1983 the exterior had been refined to a level that made it feasible for production. "Summary", "Radio", "Climate", etc.) removed the coil pack from the ICM and it was pretty gooey under there and leaking pretty bad which i read is a way to tell its bad (and it was a mess). If no codes it could be anything weak in secondary ignition (ICM, coils, plug wires, plugs. General Motors' newest two-seater was born not in a regular product-planning workshop but in an advanced-design studioan environment where automotive stylists are free from the constraints imposed on them when they're working on designs that are definitely scheduled for production. The division is supposedly retrenching to traditional family-car ground. By Seth Rose January 30, 2011 in Buick Reatta. The Reatta's suspension is fully independent, with struts all around, coil springs up front, a transverse plastic leaf spring in the rear, and anti-roll bars at both ends. While the Reatta wasn't very powerful or very quick the 3.8 V6 never exceeded 170 horsepower in factory-built trim it wasn't slow. "Buick never could figure out what this car was for. Excerpted from the forthcoming (eventually) book,Doomed. November 10, 2021 in Buick Reatta. Now dedicated solely to building Buick two-seaters, the plant was renamed the Reatta Craft Centre in recognition of the fact that it operates without a traditional assembly line. It got GMs new 3.8-liter V6 with port fuel injection and counter-rotating shafts to counter the V6s inherent vibration. If you really want to see if the pusher fan will work to cool the engine down, park in the driveway and let the engine idle. The then-head of the Design Studio, David North, said, We had a cartoon in the studio that illustrated our dilemma it showed a [top view] plan of the rectangular chassis with this almost circular car on it, with four corners where the frame stuck out beyond the body. They will start being displayed as soon as you enter diagnostics. Copyright 2023, Antique Automobile Club of America. first it would do it all the time, now it idles fine, but doesn't run super smooth under light throttle (slight cutting out) and will act as if its running on 3 cylinders when you go past say 1/4 throttle and beyond. This May the car went to a mechanic to have a ignition key switch installedterrible mechanic didn't even compress the lock plate in the steering column and he disabled my horn. also the blower motor at one point decided to randomly turn on and stay on so we unplugged it for now. Flint's finest was missing a specialty niche vehicle, according to Jay Qualman, who worked in strategic planning for the brand during that era. 1988 Buick Reatta 99,999 mi 6 $ 1,500 Classic Cars of SC Inc (844) 389-8080 Gary Court, SC 29645 (256 miles away) 71 1990 Buick Reatta Convertible 57,252 mi 3.8 Liter V6 $ 17,500 or $288/mo Classic Auto Mall Inc (877) 516-3869 Morgantown, PA 19543 (277 miles away) 73 1990 Buick Reatta Convertible 42,860 mi 3.8 Liter V6 $ 21,500 or $354/mo Today the 2020s coupes are pretty uncommon. If "Buick'' and "sports car" sound like mutually exclusive terms, then you understand why we've come to Buick City in Flint, Michigan, to ask questions and kick tires. The new production equipment was installed in a renovated Oldsmobile axle-and-forge plant in Lansing, Michigan. Something not as flamboyant but more luxurious." The Reatta isn't beautiful, but neither is it off-putting. Checked all fuses and relays and ground connections to no avail. He offered $500 for just the book, but the owner insisted that he had to sell the whole car, so Gomberg ended up acquiring the vehicle, and the contents of its glove box, for just $700. It seems like one thing after another with this engine. All traces of sports-car crudity have been filtered out. It glides along the Interstates and keeps it composure on lumpy surface streets. Tested: 1988 Buick Reatta Has Two Seats, But Isn't a Sports Car, Best (and Forgotten) Coupes and 1970s G.O.A.T. Posted by daniel simms on May 27, 2014 Open Questions: The car Buick wanted, Qualman says, would appeal to "people who really enjoy driving from point A to point B" when those two points are separated by hundreds of miles. That's what we're gonna try next. He makes solid eye contact. And, yes, the Reatta is easy to get in and out of. We challenge Qualman by asking him what, precisely, the Reatta is doing in the 1988 Buick lineup. Ive read that it might be the BCM or the splices under the passenger seat i just have no clue what the problem could be. He has raced continuously since college, held SCCA and IMSA pro racing licenses, and has competed in the 24 Hours of Daytona. The car itself was built on a shortened version of GMs E-Body platform, which dated back to the 60s and was used over the years as the basis for both rear-drive and front-drive vehicles, most notably for personal luxury coupes like the 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado and (later) the Cadillac Eldorado. Question about 1988 Buick Reatta 1 Answer I just bought a 1988 Reatta. 's, The Greatest Cars of All Time: The Seventies, Watch Out Casey Jones: We Drive a Locomotive, Your Privacy Choices: Opt Out of Sale/Targeted Ads. The car also had had an Interlock device installed which I believe damaged the electrical I'm having that removed this Friday. ", More Underappreciated ClassicsFirst-Generation Nissan XterraEagle Talon TSi AWDLincoln Blackwood Pickup (Really). Which brings us back to the who of the Reatta, and it isn't us. Check this to ensure that the connections are also clean and tight. Brand mismtach was the real problem. Dave Rand was principally responsible for the design. There are 3 fuses that could affect the displays which you hopefully already checked, 5, 8, 15. yea i checkd all the fuses and i emaild Jim Finn about both a CPS and a BCM and well see what he says back. So 165 hp and a zero-60 time of nine seconds flat combined with fully independent suspension and four-wheel disc brakes started things off. After living with a pre-production Reatta for a week, we have much to report. eBay Buick Reatta. The Reatta was just 183.7 inches long and rode on a 98.5 inch wheelbase. Now we're up to the how and the where of the development saga. Contact Us - DO NOT EMAIL CAR QUESTIONS. Whew lord, sorry about that mess of text, I wasn't watching how I was typing and was quite tired from work. Was it an internal or external oil leak? That project would eventually become the Allant, leaving Buick with a similar idea but delivered as a two-door, two-passenger coupe. (Perhaps this was a subtle metaphor for roping in new buyers and attention for the tri-shield brand?) the car was last tagged in 2017 i believe. I then checked both radiator fluid and oil to see if one had leaked to the other in case of a gasket leak, and both were solid colors, not milky or anything. Update: the ICM and Coil pack did fix the issue, however it still has a light throttle misfire/hiccup but otherwise it has good power and responds to more load and throttle/rpm etc now and does so smoothly and cleanly. The car sold moderately during its four-year run. Compra con confianza en eBay! Do you mean the defroster doesn't work or that you can't run the climate and other controls thru the touch screen? Powered by Invision Community. The BCM is the Body Control Module (computer). I'm not that organized," he said, laughing. "At my office, they always say, how many of these things do you have?". It stood for real comfort, for something sporty, for being accommodating. The only issues he has with his cars are electrical gremlins that seem to occur if he lets them sit for more than a month: stalling and hesitation with the computer fuel injection, and the need to replace mass airflow and O2 sensors. The historical record indicates Buick thought it needed a halo car but not as good as a Corvette nor as bad as the Pontiac Fiero. The crossover pipe is relatively easy to access. As a halo vehicle, the Buick Reatta was also meant to incorporate the latest in advanced technology. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for FRAM Air Filter for 1988-1991 Buick Reatta - Intake Inlet Manifold Fuel ps at the best online prices at eBay! To ensure ride quality on par with European personal luxury coupes, the Reatta had a fully independent suspension, unlike the Grand National which still used a solid rear axle. The matter was settled when the Allant was approved by the GM brass, who felt that two new luxury roadsters would be one too many. I was tired, added the stop leak and more oil, and within I want to say 15 miles everything seemed to be righted. The comment about going through two qts. In fact, the cheapest of them was part of a three-figure deal he made attempting to buy a leather-bound owner's binder for one of the cars he already owned. We'll start with the styling: we think it's nice. The connection to the forward manifold is two studs and nuts. . Most people, including me, keep a trickle charger on the battery if the car is going to be parked for an extended period. I cannot think of any reason that an oil additive would restore power and mileage unless it is simple coincidence or perhaps the lifters collapsed due to lack of oil which would tend to hurt power output. Your problem could also be the CPS (Central Power Supply) that supplies power to those items that are not working. By They told us that what they wanted was an affordable Mercedes 560SL. The Reatta program was approved for production in August 1984. As far as I'm aware, the bottom end is entirely original. The crossover pipe has a doughnut shaped graphite seal that is pressed into the flared connection with the rear manifold by a movable clamp ring on the crossover and the two bolts. I Reatta driven a couple hours using cruise control. Introduced on the 1987 Buick Riviera, with which the Reatta shared many of its underpinnings, it was the first setup of its kind. The Reatta's name was proposed by styling chief David North, who had memories of growing up on western ranches where a reata was a common Spanish word for lariat. Worse under load is almost certainly ignition. It would tout style and sophistication, manifested in the graceful, unadorned bodywork penned by GMs Advanced Design Studio 2 and (initially) an all-digital dashboard, including one of the very first LCD touchscreens installed in the center stack of an American or any other production car. Just 2,132 convertible Reattas were made in 91 in addition to 6,383 hard-top coupes pushing the total production run that year to 8,515 cars. Such recent developments as driver-adjustable shock absorbers, says Qualman, "are more for Chevy or Pontiac buyers. But it was a poorly timed and probably too-small (for Buick) car. I'd switch to a Delco ignition, quality 8mm plug wires, and Delco Rapidfire (platinum) or Iridium plugs. I ask Gomberg if he has some kind of standardized rotation schedule to ensure that each member of his fleet gets driven regularly. They deliver sports-car style without sports-car pain. There is a 'How to" tab at the top of the page. It has 176k on it. What did these cars have that the Reatta lacked? About a week ago the headlights stopped popping up (so I've been cranking them manually) and the screen was giving messages that I knew were not correct - like it would say that the engine was overheating when I started it, etc. "But if you want the technology image, you have to take those risks. In 1979, the E-Body platform was downsized to fit the times, and this revised version now entirely for front-wheel-drive cars became the starting point for what became the Reatta. The manual is a must and contains all the basic information that will help understand the terms and key abbreviations etc.. ok all the connections are clean and tight and the fuse is fine ill take the one out of my park ave and see if there the same and if not ill have to get one off ebay i guess but i checked the connections idk what to do now. Powered by Invision Community, im not seeing the list of reatta suppliers at the top of the page. "But when we went to get corporate approval, the management said, Cadillac really needs a car to go against the Mercedes SL," Qualman said. I thought it had something to do with a switch on the steering column. ", The Reatta was also meant to help Buick retain, or gain, consumers who were fleeing GM for import brands, and to lower the median buyer age without alienating the core cohort. A little more to the rear above the coolant overflow tank is another Power Junction Block. Is your ALDL cover in place ? I assume the coil pack should also be replaced at the same time, definitely couldn't hurt since it too looks quite old etc. I forgot to mention we checked fuel pressure, it went up to 47psi at prime at settled at 42psi. car looks like it had a lot of highway miles and very basic maintenance done. They were known for this and the best solution is to get a rebuild digital dash that may have a warranty, which should correct the problem. You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. And aft of the seats, under the sloping rear window, is the kind of storage space you find in king-cab pickups. If the touchscreen is working, that will help narrow the issue. CPS is under the dash near where the brake pedal pivots, and the BCM is behind the glove box. This meant the utilization of the new LN3 3.8-liter V-6, one of the first GM engines with port fuel injection and a counter-rotating balance shaft to aid smoothness. The problem was 1) the technology wasn't quite up to the task and 2) the typical Buick buyer got scared away from blinking digital information blasting from the instrument panel. Did the engine get noisy, like lifters ticking? Lifter tick was there from low oil, but left once I'd added things. Thats basically how it was designed, then it got productionized to fit its E/K platform and taking into account assembly line restrictions. It was internal as far as I can tell, there wasn't any sign of an external leak. Not saying it's the BCM, just that was my case and I checked everything out before hand. First-year production amounted to just 4,708 cars which makes the Pontiac Aztek seem like a winner (11,201 were sold its first year). While the Reatta wasnt very powerful or very quick the 3.8 V6 never exceeded 170 horsepower in factory-built trim it wasnt slow. Get free expert troubleshooting help, support & repair solutions for all Reatta Car and Truck. / Buick Reatta eBay. It can't be stressed enough about how important those grounds are to the operation of the electronics you are having problems with. would seem to indicate it leaked out unless you are indicating it somehow held two qts inside the valve covers or the valley. It was based on an aging rear-drive platform (also used to build the Chevrolet Monte Carlo and the Pontiac Grand Prix) with a primitive suspension, plasticky dashboard, analog gauges, and none of the high-tech features that abounded inside the Reatta. I would like to add that checking fuel pressure would also be a good idea if you haven't done so. "The more we dug into it, the more we found that there was a group of buyers who wanted a kind of sporty orientation but still wanted a practical carone, quite frankly, that a fairly well heeled guy could give his wife. Thats like asking to make a cardboard box like a steel safe. does it worse in OD with the TC locked but will do it in park or neutral as well. He thinks that the leak must be under the dashboard. Enter the Reatta named to suggest yachting rather thanrest homes. I pulled all of the plugs to check and there wasn't oil on any of them, and no oil along the valve cover surfaces. The cars Buick shows in its ads these days wear whitewalls and wire wheel covers, for crying out loud. Reatta Owners Journal is a group of Buick Reatta owners and enthusiasts who enjoy discussing the Buick Reatta automobile and sharing information about it. I'll keep the advice/instructions in mind for a weekend afternoon. i cleared the codes afterward so tomorrow when we get back to putting in a "test pipe" in place of the cat, and cleaning the interior ill try to check and see what code/s its throwing now. Location of the blower motor relay on 1989 buick reatta There is no relaythere is a motor controller. I having a problem with digital dash and electric climate control unit. 1988 buick reatta electrical problems. The 1990 and 1991 Reattas instead got a more typical interface for the time, and GM subbed in vacuum-fluorescent gauges. And that just barely. Ive had this car for about 8 months and have had minimal problems. And though Cadillac's appropriation delayed production by two years, North's prototype design was given the go-ahead with relatively minimal changes, retaining a rounded wedge shape with pop-up headlamps, a generous trunk, and a unique bubble-back rear windshield. I have an 88 Buick Reatta, I was having the same problem this weekend. Industry: Employment Services , Services to Buildings and Dwellings , Other Support Services , Semiconductor and Other Electronic Component Manufacturing , Other Specialty Trade Contractors See All Industries, General Freight Trucking , Lessors of Real Estate , Business Support Services , Employment agencies, Help supply services, Building and office cleaning services, Packaging and labeling . the vehicle is warm that suggests fuel probably is ok and so is spark. I believe Padgett handled that. Unlike the Fiero which actually sold very successfully until its numerous design flaws became common knowledge the Reatta sold poorly from the get-go. Qualman's business card says he's the advertising manager for the .css-xtkis1{-webkit-text-decoration:underline;text-decoration:underline;text-decoration-thickness:0.0625rem;text-decoration-color:inherit;text-underline-offset:0.25rem;color:#1C5f8B;-webkit-transition:all 0.3s ease-in-out;transition:all 0.3s ease-in-out;font-weight:bold;}.css-xtkis1:hover{color:#000000;text-decoration-color:border-link-body-hover;}Buick Motor Division, but never mind that.
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